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High on Hockey Keeper League - Part 3

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  • I'm looking @ FA and I just gotta bring it up again, but why do we still have ATOI as a category? I just don't understand. Only in a league that counts ATOI as a category would rookie defensemen like Sergachev (19 points), Butcher (18 points) and other highly productive players on deep teams or other roles like Barzal (26 points in 27 games as a rookie), JVR (20 points in 27 games with a near 40-goal pace on a deep team), Toffoli (another near 40-goal pace), Buchnevich (21 points in 27 games), Gallagher (another near 40-goal pace), DeBrincat, etc. be on FA.

    I remember backing out of a deal earlier in the season with Matt solely because JVR's ATOI was so low despite playing a relatively large role on a deep Leafs team with his special teams time and production in general.

    Not to mention one injury early in a game completely screws you out of any chance to win the category.

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    • I see ATOI as an exclusive reward to those that have been able to keep/draft the elite players in the league, almost a luxury point just for having them on your team. I find it has absolutely no impact to our league seeing as how it is a category that you have 0% control over. You know who's going to get you goals, assists, shots, etc. that's why you draft/keep them, but ATOI makes just as much sense as +/- does. If we were to take that entire category out right now, I doubt it would impact the league as much as that fiasco last season with some owners being booted.

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      • All I'm saying is, I see it as a really backwards and almost useless category. If you want to keep it, go ahead. I have a list of over a dozen players that avg less than 18 minutes a game and destroy in every other category that I'd happily take (if I don't have them already) on my team.

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        • There's a whopping 00:10 between the average ice time of the top-six teams. It can go to a vote again if you guys want, but if it changes it's probably only fair to change it during the offseason..

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          • Originally posted by Josh View Post
            There's a whopping 00:10 between the average ice time of the top-six teams. It can go to a vote again if you guys want, but if it changes it's probably only fair to change it during the offseason..
            Off-season, yeah. I've never been a fan of the category, though. It doesn't measure the value of anyone. Alzner is shit yet plays 20:00+ a game, for example, as well as Ceci, Orpik, Daley, etc. and you can literally be down a point right off the bat if one of your players leaves the game early and doesn't return.

            Not to mention actual valuable players in a keeper league like this (Sergachev, Barzal, Butcher, etc.) who could be had aren't being touched because some games they play 12 minutes and that would put the team owning them at the loss for the category, too. Then you have guys like JVR and Gallagher who should be owned but they don't have a large number of minutes either despite being efficient and productive as hell.

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            • I'd be interested in a vote this off-season, as long as it was before keeper selections were due. I like ATOI but Mike brings up some good points.

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              • Alright, let's table it for offseason discussion then, with a vote to come.

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                • Keep ice time. Rayzor can list some players who are good but don't play enough, sure. One could just as easily go the other way and name players (mostly defensemen) whose value only reflects on the scoresheet by way of ToI. I would say ToI is the best single indicator of players' value available to us. The coaches in the NHL are among the 31 best in the world, and they know their players as well as anybody. If there are players who put up points yet don't play a ton, or vice versa... well, here the common fan approach seems to be "well the coach is an idiot" or something in that vein, but realistically - while yes, coaches make mistakes - generally speaking, they know their players and who deserves ice time a lot better than we do.

                  Anywho, after that trade, I'm looking to shake things up. Basically everyone on my team is available right now except for Hedman, Schenn, Trocheck, Provorov, Guentzel. This means available players include Wheeler, Byfuglien, Pastrnak, Boeser, Panarin, Arvidsson, Skinner, Marchessault, Gibson, Schneider. Now, when I say available, that doesn't mean I'm giving people away, but I'm open to ideas.

                  I'm mainly looking for draft picks, but I'm open to hockey trades, particularly if a contending team wants to improve their depth, I could move two good players for one young keeper.

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                  • I agree with Kevin on the relevance of ATOI.

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                    • Originally posted by matchesmalone View Post
                      Keep ice time. Rayzor can list some players who are good but don't play enough, sure. One could just as easily go the other way and name players (mostly defensemen) whose value only reflects on the scoresheet by way of ToI. I would say ToI is the best single indicator of players' value available to us. The coaches in the NHL are among the 31 best in the world, and they know their players as well as anybody. If there are players who put up points yet don't play a ton, or vice versa... well, here the common fan approach seems to be "well the coach is an idiot" or something in that vein, but realistically - while yes, coaches make mistakes - generally speaking, they know their players and who deserves ice time a lot better than we do.

                      Anywho, after that trade, I'm looking to shake things up. Basically everyone on my team is available right now except for Hedman, Schenn, Trocheck, Provorov, Guentzel. This means available players include Wheeler, Byfuglien, Pastrnak, Boeser, Panarin, Arvidsson, Skinner, Marchessault, Gibson, Schneider. Now, when I say available, that doesn't mean I'm giving people away, but I'm open to ideas.

                      I'm mainly looking for draft picks, but I'm open to hockey trades, particularly if a contending team wants to improve their depth, I could move two good players for one young keeper.
                      And if you lose a player to injury on their first shift and you lose the category for the week? And I'd rather not use the coaches thing because a lot of coaches have weird obsessions with veterans and shit players whereas rookies who are productive are afforded much smaller opportunities yet continue to put up points. Even the best coaches have dumb veteran obsessions -- look at Mike Babcock with Dan Cleary back in Detroit.


                      as for your other part... what you want for Pastrnak :D

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                      • I've never had a perfect week before, but I'm 11-0-1 against Matt's team right now. Unfortunately I probably won't get a shutout (and some other categories will fall off). I also haven't lost a matchup this season, but I have tied one.

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                        • Meanwhile I am losing 9-3-0.

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                          • Originally posted by Alfie11 View Post
                            I've never had a perfect week before, but I'm 11-0-1 against Matt's team right now. Unfortunately I probably won't get a shutout (and some other categories will fall off). I also haven't lost a matchup this season, but I have tied one.
                            Great, thanks man.

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                            • Originally posted by Alfie11 View Post
                              I've never had a perfect week before, but I'm 11-0-1 against Matt's team right now. Unfortunately I probably won't get a shutout (and some other categories will fall off). I also haven't lost a matchup this season, but I have tied one.
                              Honestly, if it wasn't for my team being a damned infirmary this season, I think I'd be competing toe to toe with you.

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                              • Originally posted by Matt the Aussie View Post

                                Great, thanks man.
                                My last five weeks have been 6-6-0 or 6-5-1 weeks ... I'm sorry it had to be you :P

                                In all seriousness, it's a pretty close matchup despite the score. One goal, two assists, tied in shots, four hits, nine saves a .01 SV%.

                                Originally posted by Josh View Post

                                Honestly, if it wasn't for my team being a damned infirmary this season, I think I'd be competing toe to toe with you.
                                I think this season is up for grabs. My team last season was a lot better, and 11 wins separate 1-5.

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